Question:
The answer to a separation of church and state legal issue is provided by the court:
The question is whether Lincoln’s Gettysburg address was unconstitutional. He said “from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion—that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain—that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom—and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.” You will note its very striking similarity to the Pledge of Allegiance “one nation, under God,…..”.
My answer is, since we all agree the pledge is perfectly appropriate and constitutional, we ought to agree the Gettysburg Address was too.

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I'll see your Lincoln and raise you a John Adams.
See The Treaty of Tripoli, 1796
The Treaty is notable for Article 11, which reads:
"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

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And I’ll raise you a Holy Trinity Church v. United States (1897), in which the Supreme Court, after citing a multitude of evidences of the Christian consensus in early America declared "These and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation."
So, were the Senate that approved the treaty and the Supreme Court that decided the HTC case opposed to one another? No. There is no question the vast majority of the population represented by Congress in 1796 was at least nominally Christian. The Senators who ratified the treaty were at the time appointed representatives of the State Legislatures and a number of those States had established (tax supported) churches. But the United States (Federal) government was not officially tied to any church or Christianity (though the majority of men making up the government were). “[The Federal government] has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and ........ no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries." That did not mean we would not go to war against the Barbary Pirates for other specified reasons, but we would not specify our reason as religion.
For the 100 years between the Treaty of Tripoli and the Holy Trinity Church decision and another 50± years beyond, Congress had (and still has) a tax paid CP and opened its sessions with prayers. The Supreme Court building featured (and still features) a display of Moses and the Ten Commandments. Supreme Court sessions began (and still begin) with the words “God help this Court.” Public schools made regular use of Bible reading and recitation of the Lord’s Prayer. Presidents made regular reference to God in their speeches. None of this was considered unconstitutional, nor should it be now. It was not until the mid 20th century that the concept of separation of church and state became radicalized to mean expressions of religion ought to be banned from public property. Such an understanding was obviously not that of the authors of the constitution and was not its intent.

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I refer you to Thomas Jefferson. As you may recall, he is the guy who wrote the Declaration of Independence.
"Believing that religion is a matter which lies solely between man
and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or
his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach
actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign
reverence that act of the whole American people which declared
that their Legislature should "make no law respecting an
establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise
thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church and
State." --Thomas Jefferson to Danbury Baptists, 1802.

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the
propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful
and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson: Statute of Religious
Freedom, 1779.
If you allow the exhibit of religion, the exercise of religion and the trappings of faith into public buildings, paid for with public monies, you are compeling me to pay for your opinion.
"The clergy, by getting themselves established by law, and
ingrafted into the machine of government, have been a very
formidable engine against the civil and religious rights of man."
--Thomas Jefferson to Jeremiah Moor, 1800.

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The above should make patently clear the "intent" of the authors of the Constitution.
As far as the use of prayer by Legislative bodies, one can only hope that as learned adults, they are able to respect anothers expression of faith while remaining secure in their own beliefs. This may not be the case when a child is confronted with the majority of his or her class presenting their beliefs which may well contrast their own.

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Ah, yes! Another of the Founding Fathers who was always willing to include statements of religion in official political documents. Witness the Declaration of Independence referred to: “When in the Course of human events, ……. separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, ….. that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, …… “ No banning of religion from the public view with T.J. It is also reported that, when he initiated what would eventually become the University of Virginia, he required all students to attend church services on Sundays. The interesting thing was he did not say what church. He left it to them to choose their own. But, they must attend some church or face expulsion from the school. Though Jefferson did not believe in miracles, and published a version of the Bible from which he had edited them out, he still believed God created the world and Christ was a great moral teacher. The laws of the nation and each of the states were largely based on Christian moral teaching (even the U.S. constitution gave the President Sunday off to observe the Lord's day when considering a veto) and it was widely believed that an individual could not be a “good citizen” without training in Christianity. Hence, to produce the good citizens his university was planned to produce, regular church attendance was seen as beneficial and complementary to the academic program.
I have always admired T.J., not only for his support of religious freedom, but also for his advocacy of minimal government. I have to believe both he and Andy Jackson roll over in their graves every time the socialistic party of BIG government invokes their names for fundraising purposes with an annual Jefferson – Jackson Day.


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As I am sure you must be aware, the occasion of this letter to the Danbury Baptists was that they had written President T.J. a complaint about what they had heard were imminent plans of the Federal government to establish a national church. T.J. responded that the rumor was false and that such a move would be unconstitutional. I would simply draw your attention to the fact that the quote exemplifies the thinking of the day about religion. For the most part (except in the case of the Barbary Pirates and the Treaty of Tripoli, where we were dealing with Muslims), the only “religions” Americans encountered were Christian denominations. The nation’s priM dealings were with the nations of Europe, all of which had established churches. Most of the 13 colonies had established churches. There were no large populations of Jews, Hindus, Muslims, etc. Most Americans, including T.J., when they spoke of differing religions meant the Anglican religion, the Lutheran religion, the Baptist religion, etc. The United States was, as the Supreme Court concluded in 1897, a Christian nation. Thus, T.J. saw a “wall of separation” between church and state, not between synagogue and state, etc. This is why it was so easy to have a Congressional CP, exhibition of the Ten Commandments in the courthouse, etc. These were typically nondenominational expressions of faith. All of the Christian denominations accept the Ten Commandments. All of the Christian denominations accept the idea of people being endowed with human rights by their creator. Hence the Founders were perfectly able to avoid establishing a national church while still allowing exhibition of Christian faith in their official government acts. They did not establish a religion, but did also not prohibit the free exercise of it. IMHO, in our effort to avoid the appearance of having established a religion, we have swung too far in the direction of prohibiting the free exercise. But, that’s just my opinion!
T.J.'s letter to the Danbury Baptists is also helpful for its insight into the purpose of the constitutional amendment. It was to protect the individual citizen from having the Federal government infringe on the individuals liberty of religious conscience. It was not, as some moderns proclaim, to protect government from the influence of Christian citizens.


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If this is true, then purchasing books with public money and exhibiting them in public libraries is also compeling me to pay for all the opinions expressed therein, many of which I disagree with. More importantly, when you use tax dollars to purchase textbooks for public schools, some of which express opinions I disagree with, you are compeling me to pay for your opinion. So, obviously, public libraries and public schools are unconstitutional and ought to be closed immediately.
It is interesting that, yesterday, the same fellow who made national news with his court challenge to the Pledge which was rebuffed by the U.S. Supreme Court, is back and has filed a new suit with several of his friends. So, we definitely haven’t heard the last of the issue.

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Job and RoadAgent, you both are GOOD!
Job's quote:

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You are so right. We've had to approach our children's schools regarding a number of wrong or inappropriate teachings. Evolution, so-called sex education, religion, et al.

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The problem is that the neo con right keeps on wailing that the USA was founded as a Christian nation. This is patently and demonstrably untrue. There is NO question that the framers belived in the existance of a higher power. The problems occour when certian groups attempt to twist this fact into a tool to evangilize with the public dollar.
I have no idea about anyone elses religion, but I do know that my faith and my God was strong enough to withstand nearly a century of Soviet repression and after only a few years, fully three quarters of the citizens of the Russian Federation identify themselves as Christian (Russian Orthodox, Catholic & Baptist).
All of the effort that is being wasted on worrying and fighting over who can put what in which public building can be much better spent.