Question:
I was reading the Cartaste and it got me thinking.. I know dangerous stuff.
What ever happened to shame? What is wrong with shame?
Once upon a time there were social reprecussions for certain behaviors. People knew that improper immoral behavior results in a bad reputation. You knew to hang your head in shame. If you wanted to improve your reputation you had to pay your dues and work hard to PROVE you had mended your ways. It was not a given. The lines between right and wrong were very clear. Now they are so blurred I don't think there are any left.
It started with society accepting little things.. divorce, out of wedlock births, foul language, "free love" etc. Now look at were we are. Kids go out and murder and it's not their fault they had a rough childhood, they didn't know it was wrong, it's society's fault. There is no taking responsiblity for your own actions anymore. Ooops I got pregnant I'll just kill the kid and pretend it never happened.. till the next time. Ooop I have a STD... blame it on the partner. Ooops My marriage is boring or too hard.. just tell everyone what a big meanie the spouse is and get a divorce. Ooops I spent all my money on luxuries and needless material wealth and can't pay my bills, blame it on the economy and my boss for not paying me enough. No shame in poor decisons or actions. No taking responsiblity. What is it going to take to make people feel shame for their behaviors again? Just seems to me a a little shame would make this a much better world.
Ang<--- done over simplifying for tonight.
**The believing mind is externally impervious to evidence. The most that can be accomplished with it is to induce it to substitute one delusion for another. It rejects all overt evidence as wicked... Henry Louis Mencken (1880-1956)**

Answer:

Angelface,
You have got to stop it!!!
I'm getting worried!
Again!
I
have
to
say
this...
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Good post!
You know, we live a time where people will throw stones at you for saying what you just posted!
Just like those people that throw trash out their car windows.
There always have been trash throwers!
However, years ago folks looked to see if the coast was clear, THEN they threw it out!
Now days, they just throw it out. Tuff luck if you happen to be passing them!
No shame!
Years ago...
Nobody lived together.
Some snuck around at night.
However, they were home in their own beds at daylight!
Now, they buy homes, have babies, and rub your nose in it!
Oh, later after they played house for a few years they will get married. Nevertheless, they usually get a divorce!
If I get drunk and kill someone.
No problem, I had a bad childhood or the guy shouldn’t have been in the way!
Alternatively, it’s the bar keeps fault for being greedy and taking your money.
Like what was in the news yesterday.
Man is suing the gambling boat, because he spent all his money there!
It’s the boats owner for not stopping him!
And no, he doesn’t want what he over gambled. He wants every penny he EVER gambled there!
Lady’s these days!
They dress less in public then they do in the privacy of their bedroom in front of their husbands!
Progress is not made by the cynics!
Things not worth doing, are things not worth doing well!
Indiana RoadRunner
A legend in his own mind!
Last edited by Indiana Roadrunner on Sun Dec 29, 2002 5:07 pm; edited 1 time in total

Answer:

I will agree with you Angel... AND IRR as well.
There is NO "responsibility" attached to what an individual does anymore...
Go out and steal a gun from a law-abiding citizen... go to a store and shoot the clerk... steal a car and go on the high-speed chase... crash into someone and perhaps kill them... and then get caught.
Now... this "criminal" will plead whatever he can to get off or a reduced sentence because "society" made him this way and then they will sue the gun owner who is a victum.. and then sue the manufacturer of the firearm because they made it... and on it goes.
Society today is ALWAYS looking to "blame" someone else... instead of the one person of where the blame SHOULD lie.
I don't know... it seems to be getting worse instead of better.
Kat
Each heart is a pilgrim, each one wants to know the reason why the winds die and where the stories go. Pilgrim, in your journey you may travel far, for pilgrim it's a long way to find out who you are..." Enya "Pilgrim" from "a day without rain"
*~ Official Keeper of the Here Birthday List~*

Answer:

I have been saying the same thing for years and all I ever got was slammed for my efforts. I get called every name in the book and then some, but deep down, I know I am right!
It's gotten to the point where I wonder if I am even normal anymore. After all, I have never been abused, I have never been a victem, never been a criminal, a son of parents who loved thier kids and never got a divorce, married myself for over 20 years and stuck with it through thick and thin, raised four kids who have never been in trouble and have no kids out of wedlock, etc...
Where did I go wrong?
«"I am truly blessed!" »

Answer:

It is not the whole world--it is Western Materialistic Culture that has seen fit to ignore shame.
Shame is not profitable. See: Just Do IT!
In most places around this planet, people are held quite rigidly to prevailing moral standards.
We may disagree, even condemn some of them (I am thinking of so-called "honor killings" of women in Pakistan and India--where if the woman does something "shameful" the male relatives kill her and are almost never prosecuted.
But I also am thinking of the three years I worked in Mexico, drilling. Mostly small towns (where it really was a case of "we don' need no steekin' badges."
I never even took my tools out of the back of my pickup. We had cases of oil and drums of fuel at the drill sites and NEVER had a problem.
Why? Because everybody in town would have known who the thief was. Nobody likes thieves. And they are dealt with quite harshly in Mexico (no ACLU.)
Public shame implies a publicly accepted morality. Everybody pretty much has to agree on what is right and wrong.
But money talks very loudly. If I can bump up the stock price by throwing 25,000 people out of work--HEY--That's "GOOD."
If I can steal big enough to become a celebrity--that's "GOOD."
What does it take for people to feel shame again? What does it take for people to take responsibility?
It takes examples. People are herd animals. If we want this as a society, we will ALL toe the line. We will ALL obey the traffic laws. We will ALL be honest. We will ALL obey the rules.
What are the chances of this happening in a society where all hell has been let loose? Maybe when the chickens really come home to roost. Maybe when the consequences of our collective actions make life so miserable that we all have to ask, "What happened?"
I am not a doom prophet. I don't believe in all those supposed predictions in Revelations.
The World (Sorry, I mean the U.S.A.) may go on like it has been for generations. (Rome lasted for hundreds of years.)
But eventually, if you do the wrong thing--either individually or collectively-- long enough--there's gonna be trouble.
May you be well and happy!
Last edited by ErikMoore on Sun Dec 29, 2002 7:29 pm; edited 1 time in total

Answer:

Ahh the good old days....
Except that there never really were any good old days. The Idea that things were better last generation or the generation before is just an illusion.
A hundred years ago you couldn't travel a road at night without a shotgun. The only protection from brigands was outgunning them. Young Ladies din't get pregnant out of wedlock nooooo, they just visited their far away aunt for nine months. And we know darn well that Saloons from New York to San Fransisco certainly did not have Prostitutes quartered upstairs. Even General Hooker himself would never allow camp followers into his army, and the term "hookers" had nothing to do with him. We also know that the leading cause of death among English Clergy a hundred years before that was Syphilis, but that was from dirty toilet seats. And No one would ever think of resorting to piracy on the high seas or on land. Tales Buccaneers and Highwayman were just a bunch of lies.
There never were any "good old days". We only hear more about it now because news travels faster and beyond the village boundaries. People havn't changed morality in 5000 years, nor have they stopped complaining about it.



Answer:

You do have some good points there Havoc. Though a hundred years ago and more, more than likely your neighbor was an honest working man. You did not have to worry that the guy down the block was running a crack house. Unseemly neighbors were more than likely to be run out of the neighborhood.
While there were those girls who got knocked up out of wedlock, most single parent homes were due to a death of the spouse. Those girls who did bear a child out of wedlock did not go around being proud of this fact. We have many today who deliberatly get pregnant, either because it is the thing to do or to collect a welfare check. (I really don't know if this has changed much, but for quite a while in Worcester, MA, and other cities I am sure, there was trend where it was "cool" for a girl to have a child. They even had the first in-school day care center just to keep the girls in school, only to find this perpetuated the problem.)
We did not have the politically correct victem mentality as we do today. Back in the "old days", how many kids could kill thier parents and get away with it because they were alledged victems? How many could use the excuse of an oppressive society, drugs, alchohol, race or whatever as the reason for violent and/or criminal behavior and end up with counseling as thier punishment?
Then we end up with people like Hillary saying it takes a village to raise a child and we are not responsible individually for our kids. It is society's problem, responsibility, and overall thier fault when someone goes wrong. The last person to blame is the "victem", the person who commits the crime! After all, it is society that made this person who he is, and therefore we are to blame!
We, as individuals, need to take full responsibility for everything we do. If we commit a crime, we need to accept the punishment. We also need to take full responsibility for our children. We are the ones who brought them into the world and we need to raise them properly so this type of behavior is reduced. (I don't believe we will ever stop all abberant behavior. Despite out best efforts, some just end up as criminals by thier own choice and/or desire.)
«"I am truly blessed!" »

Answer:

The difference is Havoc that 100 years ago a young woman who did get pregnant would go away and not flaunt it in polite society's face and the hookers were kept upstairs. There was enough self respect and shame to quietly deal with the consquence. Now days there are no consquences. Hell we pay people to have kids and not support them by working. Once upon a time a person was ashamed to accept charity or welfare. Now days it's some kind of right! .
I know a lady who earns 26k a year and her hubby 40k a year. They do pretty well. Own their own house, drive two nice cars and are always buying this and that. They applied for Christmas gifts to be given to them from the local charity. So the ladies bring it wouldn't talk she hid the $1000 worth of toys she bought while they brought in more for her kids. Pure greed in my opinion. There were kids who did not get anything but by Gosh she got her share of the pie. It made me ashamed to have known her. She was proud of herself! Not one ounce of shame in what she did.
Yes the behaviors are as old as time but they weren't always flaunted and accepted. They were kept quiet and dealt with with as little fanfare as possible as not to bring shame on the family. Now when the 15 yr old gets pregnant they throw a baby shower!!!
**The believing mind is externally impervious to evidence. The most that can be accomplished with it is to induce it to substitute one delusion for another. It rejects all overt evidence as wicked... Henry Louis Mencken (1880-1956)**
Last edited by Angelface on Mon Dec 30, 2002 10:12 am; edited 1 time in total