Question:
This topic is directed mainly at Christians, as they believe in these, and non-believers & unbelievers usually don't. But, all responses are welcome, regardless.
Do you believe condemned souls will burn in hell forever? Or do you believe the Second Death spoken of in Revelation will end the tormenteds suffering? Why or why not?
I am reserving my comments in order to hear from others first.
Pecos out-

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Just to get people thinking, we had a discussion on the rich man and Lazarus ( ) some time ago. It is not the only relevant reference, but may be a good place for some of our newcomers to start. BEWARE, though, that some of the people posting at that time MAY have changed some of their opinions since then. Therefore, rather than respond directly to comments posted there, any ideas you get from that thread ought to be posted again here.
Christianity is not just for the Church. It must permeate like salt and light through all of culture.

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... who do not believe or accept Jesus Christ as their Savior is not according to the Word of God. But instead, departure from Christ or to be removed from the very presence of God Himself is their punishment which is a literal hell.
To be sure that you know where I am coming from, know that I believe that the soul is going to spend eternity in one of two places - heaven or hell. Eternity for any soul begins with the conception of the soul in God's mind. Based on your choice to accept or reject Jesus Christ and what He did for us on the cross is the determining factor of that destination. With Christ - heaven - apart from Christ - hell.
When satan is released from the bottomless pit after 1000 years, he will see that since now truth prevails with the very presence of Jesus from the second coming that his intended purpose to become God has been thwarted, now his only other dwelling place is the lake of fire forever. Satan has already been cast from heaven once and came to dwell among us here on earth. This will not happen again for him. He will be cast into the lake of fire forever to dwell with those who chose not to receive Christ.
As I believe, this is so sad when all that anyone had to do was to accept Jesus Christ as their Savior and acknowledge what He did for them on the cross, believe that God raised Him from the dead and they could have been saved from this eternal damnation. But instead they want their conditions to rule and have nothing to do with God or His people. No wonder, they will not want to be in heaven with a God they demeaned and with the Christians they hated so much on earth.
CRider

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Great post Pecos...
I'm sorry that I have been absent for so long as well... but am currently working TWO jobs at this time, which takes up my evening hours and even early morning hours... But... ya gotta do what ya gotta do!!
This is the one forum that I just cannot go into and make blasé or 'spur of the moment' comments in.... this takes reading and thought... see??? I DO think!!!
I would like to reply a little later on when some "extra" time comes my way... (ha~ha!)
Kat
Going on a journey in life...

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It is not my goal to start a Theological debate over a "literal hell", but I would like to say something as a Christian and a firm believer in the Word of God.
Over the years, I have come to change my belief about a "literal hell". I grew up believing that there was such a place and all the unbelievers would eventually wind up there for all eternity. But after some very prayerful study over several years, I have come to the belief that "hell" as most preachers preach it, is just not so.
I could go very deep into this matter but in the interest of time, just let me quote three verses.
Gen.2:17 "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eateth thereof thou shalt surely die" This was spoken by God to Adam and Eve, and not one word is said about suffering for eternity in "hell" "thou shalt surely die"
2nd verse the most famous verse of the Bible, John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" Not one word about "hell", "should not perish"----"perish" "surely die"-----Most surely our Lord would have said something about suffering in hell in this verse.
3rd verse--Rom. 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" "the wages of sin" is what? Hell? No DEATH
I know that there are some fine Christians here that believe the opposite, but we will not fall out over this. I know that you will quote other Scriptures that you think prove that there is a literal hell and we will never settle our differences over this matter.

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... in total annihilation from your previous post concerning this matter and that death to you is total annihilation of the soul that chooses to reject Christ. And I respect you in your belief.
However, you are dealing with spiritual matters in the verses you quoted and not literal physical matters. For example, I believe that it is referring to total separation from God and all that He stands for. Adding in other verses to complete the spiritual picture of the destination, we find that spiritual death and total separation from Christ is to spend eternity in a spiritual hell and I believe hell is hell no matter whether literal or spiritual.
Bottom line to this is that neither of us are going there because we have trusted Jesus Christ as our personal Saviour and Lord. Those who haven't have made their decision and that is to not want to be a part of the kingdom of Christ in the first place. Therefore they would not want to go to heaven at all. So I believe that we all get what we want through our choices.
CRider

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Perhaps a spokesman for each side of the issue (Pecos or CRider for and Nocount against???) could give their suggestions on how the following verses from Revelation chapters 20 and 21 fit their points of view. Is the lake of fire literal for figurative? Also, comments on whether the “death” cited by Nocount in Genesis, Rom.6:23, etc. is physical or spiritual would be welcomed. [Note: The original question implied an either/or situation (fire or death). These verses seem to present a BOTH situation, since being thrown in the fire IS the second death. But, how is it to be understood????]
20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Answer:

... the first death is the separation of the body from the soul in physical death, while the spiritual death is the second death and being cast into the lake of fire.
If we are to maintain a position that God is the overall caretaker of everything from beginning to end, then we have to assume with some degree of accuracy that He will have to be the caretaker of the lake of fire and brimstone. Meaning that He will be in control of those including satan who have been cast there. But for what purpose? They can not enter into heaven again; and they can never achieve any quality of life again other than total punishment through a life of fire and brimstone. If we take the Scripture literally, then this is what those who reject Jesus can expect.
On the other hand, if we agree with NoCount and his understanding of annihilation or just gone completely - poof - then there is nothing to look after nor is there any hope period. For some of those who reject Christ, this is good news. They do not want to be part of what God has for them or to share with those who are part of God's kingdom.
I sometime wonder why we spend so much time on this subject when one only has to accept Christ to avoid the issue whether literal hell with burning fire or spiritual annihilation and gone for ever. But one must understand what they are saved from as much as what they are saved to. Therefore, I believe that the place of a literal hell with fire and brimstone is what awaits the unsaved.
Luke records that those that find themselves in hell will know that their existence is not pleasant and that they want out. If they can not get out then can they want to change their circumstances with just a touch of water. If they can not change their circumstances, then at least get someone to tell their relatives and friends what has happened to them that they will not suffer the same fate as well. Does that not sound like a lieteral place to be avoided?
Do I put people there by procliming this truth - NO! Does God put them there because He is an unloving God and chooses to punish some folks and please others - NO! They are there because they put themselves there by their rejection of Jesus Christ as Saviour.
But there is more to it than just accepting Jesus as Saviour. We have to understand what He did for us for it to meaningful. Prior to His death, we were not able to have our sins forgiven thus in our sinful state we were canidates for an eternal hell, but through His death on the cross, He became the ultimate sacrifice for us and it is in this that we glory. Not the cross - the cross was the cruel tool used by man to accomplish the sacrifice. Jesus was the sacrificial lamb, and He willingly accepted His role so that we might be saved. That is what we mean when we say ask Jesus to be our Saviour and Lord.
CRider

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In response to Job and the verses that have been brought out of The Revelation, I would like to just make a few comments.
First, it is my firm conviction that the whole Book of The Revelation has NOTHING to do with the Church, The Body of Christ or the dispensation of Grace that we enjoy today. There are several different "schools" on The Revelation. I hold to the "Futuristic", that is, I firmly hold to the belief that everything in The Revelation, is prophecy. The Holy Spirit makes this very clear in Rev. 1:3 "Blessed is he that readeth, and and they that hear the words of THIS PROPHECY" "THIS PROPHECY" And any serious Bible student must recognize that "works" is stamped on this Book from beginning to end. "Works" not Grace! You dont find the doctrine of Grace in The Revelation.
Listen to the Holy Spirit, Rev. 2:7 "To him that overcometh" Rev. 2:11 "He that overcometh" Rev. 2:17 "To him that overcometh" Rev. 2:26 "he that overcometh" Rev. 3:5 "He that overcometh" Rev. 3:12 "Him that overcometh" Rev. 3:21 "To him that overcometh" Rev. 21:7 "He that overcometh"
-Now compare this to Paul's writings Eph. 2:9 "Not of works, lest any man should boast"----Gals. 2:16 "Knowing that a man is not justifgied by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ" Gals. 2:21 "if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain"
If a man is "justified" by "overcoming" then that man surely has justification to "boast", but Paul writes in Romans 3:27 "Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith"
Now any "opened minded" Bible student has to admit that what we read in The Revelation certainly cannot be TO US. You see, all the Bible is FOR US, BUT ALL THE BIBLE IS NOT TO US. There is a vast difference in reading a letter that is addressed to another person, you can gain information, but that letter is not TO YOU. And what is wrong with Bible study is that we have gotten the idea that every Word in The Holy Scripture is TO US. Some is addressed to the Jews, some to the Church, some to the unbelievers, some to the Gentiles, some to the devil and his angels. The Revelation is the future record of God taking up His program with the Nation of Israel again. The Book of Acts record the transition of God's program with Israel coming to an end and The Revelation give us God taking up His program again with the Nation of Israel. You do the Scriptures great harm when you inject the Body of Christ into The Revelation.
Now, let me, in my feeble way, attempt to explain my position on the 2nd death. The first thing that really strikes me about this "term" is that in Hebrews 9:27 we read that "it is appointed unto men ONCE to die". SO, This statement by the writer of Hebrews would be untrue if the second death were the inevitable goal of every unbeliever.
What we are looking at in Revelation Chap. 20 is commonly reffered to as "The Great White Throne Judgement" This is the last in a series of five judgements. There is not a hint of resurrection here, only "the rest of the dead", not one word about "RESURRECTION". "The dead" are "the rest of the dead". So, who are we looking at? These are those who, "lived not again(were not raised) till the thousand years were completed. This judgement is very deliberate and judicial. There is no indication of any name being found in the Book of Life. One thing, is certain and clear, that the church of God cannot be here; for the standing of its members is not of works, but wholly of grace. "the rest of the dead", this group does not include the Church, Israel, of the Elect Remnant,nor the super wild Beasts of Chap. 13 and 17.
I cannot say for a certainty on this passage of Scripture, but one thing that I can say about it, is that, only some of mankind, and in the most extreme circumstances, will share this terrible fate.