Question:
How do you interpret this verse, Bob?
The bible has clarified what a soul is. Body + Spirit = soul.
Before Jeremiah was born, God said he spoke to him before he was formed in his mothers womb. Correct interpretation?
Following in line with this thought, God therefore spoke to Jeremiah's spirit. Correct interpretation?
Now I have always understood (through church teachings) that the spirit is Gods and is returned to God after death. How can God talk to Jeremiah's soul before he was formed unless Jeremiah's soul was formed before. IE...a past life. Now are you advocating reincarnation, CP?

Answer:

Hairbear,
You are committing a very common error in interpretation. Jeremiah is the author of the book and is speaking in the first person.
verse 4. Then the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
This is like having an older friend named John. I would say that John came over to my house today and said to me ... (first person) talking to me today July 4, 1999.
verse 5. Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I santified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
To equate this about John (my friend) again, telling about when he was at the hospital as I was being born and saying that he knew me then.
God came to Jeremiah after he was born and now as a prophet and said unto him, "Jeremiah, I knew you before before you were formed - why I even knew you before you came out of the womb. I had (notice the past tense verbs in the verse) a plan for you that you would be a prophet unto the nations as you are today.
As to reincarnation - you know my beliefs on that.
Hopes this helps in getting the answers to my questions to you from the previous post.
Bob CRyder Hataway
CP

Answer:

How does the "tense" of God's words affect the statement made?
I will iterate, God knew Jeremiah before he was formed in his mothers womb, God therefore must have know Jeremiah's soul.
If you don't believe in reincarnation, how is this possible?

Answer:

Hairbear,
You had made comment that God spoke to Jeremiah before he was formed. I tried to clarify the interpretation that God came to Jeremiah after he was born by interpreting the verse in the proper tense. Proper tense makes a big difference and you have to use it just like we do in our language today.
Now, about God talking to his spirit - what are you talking about? I do not see that. I do see that God knew Jeremiah before he was born and while he was in the womb. Where is there a problem with that?
How do you get reincarnation out of that? Hairbear, I am not going off another tangent with you until we understand that God either had a plan for you before the creation, knew you in the womb or He did not have a plan for you in your understanding.
Is is so difficult to read these two verses and answer the question? Just tell me what you think God is saying in those verses and leave reincarnation out of it.
We can deal with that on another thread if you want, but not this one. It really makes no difference in this matter any way - did He have a plan for you before creation, did He know you when you were formed in your mother's womb and does He know you today?
This is about the fourth time I have asked the question - Can you answer please? Without an answer, I have got to move on and this subject is over. I am either making sense to you or it is all in vain.
Bob CRyder Hataway
CP

Answer:

Hairbear, The bible can be interrupted any way that is convenient for the arguement at the moment. It also is very contradictory of itself. Besides the King James verse is not accurate or complete of the orginal writings. King James verse was written by and for the Church of England and the royality of the time so they could use it to control more of the people. Basically it was a "boogieman" in print.

Answer:

Angelface,
I know that you are probably more knowledgeable in the go sho than you are in the KJV of the Bible so I will just let your comment stand as one not necessarily aware of all the Bible has to offer in any versions. I had already checked the verse in the NIV and it said the same thing.
You indicated at one time that you would talk more about what you believe than try to put down what others believe. Are you changing your policy or is it what fits the moment at the time?
I see a change about face taking place here. Is there something that is happening in your life that the go sho can not answer for you that is causing this anger and hostility. I will be more than happy to address these issues with you from my Bible if you want.
Right now though, Hairbear and I have an issue we have been trying to solve for several days and we need to keep focused on the matter at hand.
Bob CRyder Hataway
CP

Answer:

WRONG!!! I happen to know the Bible better than the Gosho. I have read the KJV from cover to cover and studied it for many years. I had it jammmed down my throat for years before that. The Gosho I am just know learning.
As for putting down others beliefs I am not, I am stating facts. Facts that may not be something you or others of the Christian belief want to hear. But then you don't base your agruements in fact but on the faith of words in a book written by men. I have never seen any proof that the bible is anything more than a storybook added on to generation after generation.
Besides the name calling was began be the "good christians" on your board, that's why I haven't been here in awhile. I have better manners than to say what really I wanted.

Answer:

WOW Angelface,
Why don't you just speak your mind. Don't hold back on my account - just let us have it.
I really feel that your lashing out is not at us so to speak but at something else. I will be happy to work with you but lets take it to another thread so that this one can stay on Jeremiah 1:4-5.
I will open up the thread - come and join us there.
Bob CRyder Hataway
CP

Answer:

I understand that God spoke to Jeremiah when Jeremiah was an adult.
God's words to Jeremiah was "I knew you BEFORE you were formed in your mother's womb."
As I previously stated: Body + spirit =soul
as it is stated in biblical doctrination.
God spoke to Jeremiah's soul as an adult. He told Jeremiah he knew him before he was formed and had plans for him. God knew Jeremiah's soul before his body was formed in his mother's womb. This particular verse reinforces the theory of reincarnation.
I know you don't want to discuss reincarnation, but it is relevant to this discussion.
God had to know Jeremiah's soul before he entered the body. The only explaination for this is reincarnation. Now we are back to
Body + Spirit = Soul. The soul had to be pre-existing.
Why do I say this? Man's choice of free-will. We have the choice to do right or wrong; good or bad. God knew what Jeremiah's soul was comprised of and told Jeremiah he would be a prophet. God's had marked Jeremiah's life to be predestined.
You can argue the theory of omnipotence but if God is allknowing then he knows if a woman is going to have an abortion, then why would he send the spirit to the body knowing that the child will never be born?

Answer:

Hairbear,
I could jump for joy. Are you saying finally that God knew Jeremiah before he was formed in his mother's womb and that He knew him in his mother's womb and that He had a plan for him?
If so, what does that do for you with the red spot on the egg? Is that not a precious person who God foreknew and knew in the womb and had a plan for prior to the creation of the world?
I think that we are getting somewhere finally. I will deal with that reincarnation stuff later - right now I just want you to agree with me that God knew you before, in and after birth and that He had a plan for you. Is that where we are right now?
Bob CRyder Hataway
CP

Answer:

Yes, God knows my soul intimately. He knows what I stand for and what I believe in. I have never disagreed with you concerning this issue.
The key word is SOUL in the last paragraph.
Body + Spirit = SOUL. The soul is not formed or created (whichever term you choose) until the spirit is united with the body, unless you believe in reincarnation. This is were the soul chooses to enter a specific body.
How would God know what kind of soul Jeremiah has before he was formed unless he either A) knew Jeremiah before or B)God is omnipotent or C) all of the above.
If your answer is A) you must believe in reincarnation. That is the only possible answer because the soul could not be formed before the body.
If your answer is B)then why would God allow the innocent souls to know only death and pain? If God is a loving God why would he allow this? Why would he allow a soul to be formed knowing it will never have the ability to learn and grow?
I tend to go with C) all of the above. With the knowledge that man (or woman) has the choice of free-will it would be impossible for God to chose an individual to be a prophet unless God understood the path the individual was taking.(we are speaking free will and historionics. IE....you know that if you post certain ideas that I will react in a certain way.)As far as omnipotence, well if God can create everything I would say there is pretty good odds he is all knowing. I believe he is a great presences in everyones life IF they allow it, regardless of a person's religious beliefs. God has given his laws, presented his Son as example (showing his greatest act of love to mankind) and told mankind under no certain terms what pleases him. If we all followed his rules, life would be perfect.

Answer:

Hairbear,
You are doing so great and everything. Using these big old words about God. You are really learning. I might want to correct you on one, omnipotent. Now you might want to be using this one in referencing God because it certainly fits to some degree as it refers to His being all powerful, but the other word omniscient refers to all knowledge. Like I say they both could fit, it seems that the latter is more appropriate.
Well, you are going to take us to square one again it seems. When God knows someone before the creation of the world and has a plan for him, that is not necessarily referring to the soul + body and all that stuff. He just knows him and he wants all that He has for him in His mind.
The fact that He knows him does not preclude the mother from exercising her free will and making a choice concerning the child apart from the child's choice or God's choice.
This, as I have stated many times, does not mean that God went, "WOW, I did not know that was going to happen." Yes, He does know and yes, He does care, but He is going to allow the mother to make a choice based on her free will apart from Him. That is what makes Him God.
I think that you are to the point of admitting that God knew Jeremiah before the creation of the world, before he was formed in his mother's womb and while he was going through the gestation period. I am going to leave it at that and the discussion is closed for me with you. We will just have to let it be one of those that we agree to differ. I can not seem to break the cloudy cover that surrounds you. You are going to have to pray about that yourself. As Felix said to Paul in the Bible, "Almost, thou persuadest me", but in the end it was for naught.
I just love those babies and hate those choices to murder them by their mothers. I love the mothers even though they make bad choices and I wish God's mercy upon them, but I hate their bad choices.
Take your final parting shot if you will and then we will move on to other topics.
Bob CRyder Hataway
CP

Answer:

Ok, I'm taking my parting shot.
"Agree to disagree"......what a lovely statement.