Question:
if we charge a detention when we get held at the dock what will stop them for getting us when the driver is late
and it happens all the time
fog
loaded late snow ice breakdown sick overslept
out of hours road closed
locked keys in car
went to wrong place
dog ate paperwork
get the picture it is gonna work both ways so dont be late or it will be payback time

Answer:

That have done that for years. They will impose a late delivery fine....sometimes to the tune of thousands of dollars. Very common in the JIT (Just In Time) sectors.
I will always be a mutter carer at heart.

Answer:

yeah but most times you just redo the appointment
but now it will cost
if we charge them detention
dont be late next time

Answer:

Pretty much a no brainer.
Transporting is a task full of variables, many of which you have mentioned (weather, traffic, mechanical breakdowns). More often than not, slow loading or unloading is due to poor planning or just plain old not giving a damm (I don't care how long they sit, it aint costing me anything)
Write your contracts in such a manner that you are not held liable for that which is beyond your control, and do not accept any work form a shipper of reciver that expects you to become responsible for given variables.
If you are foolish enough to take gambles like that, you have yourself to blame, not the rules.
To comfort the afflicted, and afflict the comfortable

Answer:

Well I guess shippers & receivers will need to order their shipments far enough in advance to allow for weather, HOS, breakdowns, etc...........
There's nothing worse than a broker posting a load at 2 pm on a Friday (in Minneapolis), that delivers at 6 am on Monday out in LA.
Even if the load is accepted and car is dispatched, it'll be at least 4-5 hours before the load is ready to roll.
I've long said that if brokers, shippers and receivers were regulated as much as caring companies, we never would've had problems with the old HOS.
**********
"Got the bird dog on...
Dodgin' the scales...
80 miles an hour and a step outta jail..." From "Rollin' Home, Pirates of the Mississippi)
**********
"I've always been different with one foot over the line.
Winding up somewhere, one step ahead or behind.
It ain't been so easy, but I guess I shouldn't complain.
I've always been crazy, but it's kept me from going insane." (from Waylon Jennings)
********
Member: Happy Dweller Society
Owner Operator Division

Answer:

they try any funny business with me and i'll tell them i'm pulling out and taking it back to shipper or they got 30 minutes to get it off.

Answer:

car 1956 said:what will stop them for getting us when the driver is late
and it happens all the time
fog
loaded late snow ice breakdown
Opie says: The employee protection provisions of the Surface Transportation Assistance Act prohibit an employer from disciplining a driver for refusing to drive in violation of a Federal Motor Carrier Safety Regulation.
49 C.F.R. §392.14 provides in pertinent part as follows:Hazardous conditions; extreme caution.Extreme caution in the operation of a commercial motor vehicle shall be exercised when hazardous conditions, such as those caused by snow, ice, sleet, fog, mist, rain, dust, or smoke, adversely affect visibility or traction.
Speed shall be reduced when such conditions exist. If conditions become sufficiently dangerous, the operation of the commercial motor vehicle shall be discontinued and shall not be resumed until the commercial motor vehicle
can be safely operated. . . .
The United States Department of Labor has determined in at least two separate cases (one of which was mine) that the refusal to drive in hazardous weather conditions is a protected activity under the Surface Transportation Assistance Act. See, Robinson v. Duff car Line, Inc., 86-STA-3 (Sec’y Mar. 6, 1987) and Eash v. Roadway Express, Inc., 2000-STA-47 (ARB June 2003)http://www.oalj.dol.gov/public/wblower/decsn/00sta47e.htm
On this point the former Office of Motor Carriers within the U. S. Department of Transportation issued a regulatory guidance stating as follows:392.14 Hazardous Conditions; Extreme Caution.
Question 1: Who makes the determination, the driver or carrier, that conditions are sufficiently dangerous to warrant discontinuing operation of a CMV [commercial motor vehicle]?
Guidance: Under this section, the driver is clearly responsible for the safe operation of the vehicle and the decision to cease operation because of hazardous conditions.
This regulatory guidance was published in the Federal Register on April 4, 1997.
car1956 said:what will stop them for getting us when the driver is late and it happens all the time...sick
Opie says: Again, the employee protection provisions of the Surface Transportation prohibit a carrier from disciplining a driver for refusing to drive in violation of a Federal Motor Carrier Safety Regulation. 49 C.F.R. Sec. 392.3 states in pertinent part as follows:No driver shall operate a commercial motor vehicle, and a motor carrier shall not require or permit a driver to operate a commercial motor vehicle, while the driver’s ability or alertness is so impaired, or so likely to become impaired, through fatigue, illness, or any other cause, as to make it unsafe for him/her to begin or continue to operate the commercial motor vehicle.
If the sickness is such that the driver is impaired so greatly that he is unsafe, then a refusal to drive based on illness is protected. See, Johnson v. Roadway Express, Inc., 1999-STA-5 (ARB Mar. 29, 2000).
car1956 said:what will stop them for getting us when the driver is late
and it happens all the time...overslept
Opie says: Probably no legal protection. Driver is fair game.
car1956 said:what will stop them for getting us when the driver is late
and it happens all the time...out of hours
Opie says: Legally protected. See, Bettner v. Daymark Foods, Inc., 1997-STA-23 (ALJ May 13, 1998)
car1956 said: what will stop them for getting us when the driver is late
and it happens all the time...road closed[quote]
Opie says: Probably protected for the same reasons set forth above if making the appointment would require a violation of one or more Federal or State Laws.
car1956 said:[QUOTE]what will stop them for getting us when the driver is late
and it happens all the time...locked keys in car...went to wrong place...dog ate paperwork
Opie says: Not legally protected under any law as far as I know. Driver is subject to discipline by the motor carrier.
Several Points are in order:
1. If you are late because you will not violate a Federal Motor Carrier Safety Regulation, notify the motor carrier as soon as you know that you are likely to be late.
2. A driver cannot bring a claim against an employer under the STAA if the carrier does not have knowledge of the basis for the driver's failure to meet the appointment schedule.
3. Not everyone is willing to fight back. However, the failure to fight back can mean that you could be screwed on DAC.
NOTHING IN THIS POST SHALL BE CONSTRUED AS CREATING AN ATTORNEY CLIENT RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN PAUL O. TAYLOR, ESQ. AND ANYONE READING THIS POST. EACH LEGAL MATTER IS FACT SPECIFIC AND MUST BE EVALUATED ON THE MERITS.
Last edited by Opie on Wed Jan 07, 2004 4:40 pm; edited 1 time in total

Answer:

Seems to me that when receiving shipping docs after loading, the first thing that should be done is to calculate the earliest reasonable time the load can be legally delivered and write that on the bill. If shippers were required to sign acknowlegement, half the battle would be won.
Ian

Answer:

While the new HOS, should bring some changes in detention pay, and loading/unloading times.
It may also force companies to look at their hiring process and start weeding out those drivers, who are always late because of,
out of hours (poor planning,never shoud have accepted load, or should have made company aware of it in the begining)
overslept
locked keys in car
went to wrong place
dog ate paperwork,
because as some of us believe, there is no driver shortage, just a shortage of drivers sitting empty all across the country waiting for that load that may pop up, and the companies do not want to lose it to someone else.
As shippers, and recievers are force to plan better, it will eventually reduce the number of spur of the moment loads, and companies can take advantage of this by reducing their work force.
"The Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals --- it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government --- it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the Citizens' protection against the government."--Ayn Rand

Answer:

Ian said:Seems to me that when receiving shipping docs after loading, the first thing that should be done is to calculate the earliest reasonable time the load can be legally delivered and write that on the bill.
Opie says: Excellent advice. I am going to incorporate that into my seminars.
shadetree58 said:It [NEW HOS RULES]may also force companies to look at their hiring process and start weeding out those drivers, who are always late because of,
out of hours (poor planning,never shoud have accepted load, or should have made company aware of it in the begining)
Opie says: Maybe the drivers who are late because they are out of hours are the drivers who abide by the law and refuse to falsify by shorting bottom line time. Moreover, the poor planning is more likely to be on the part of the dispatcher and/or the shippper. No allowance for traffic, weather, road conditions, etc.
Sometimes fatigue becomes unexpected and a driver must stop driving in order to avoid killing himself or members of the public.
More often than not the driver is given the schedule. Frequently, he cannot refused without suffering serious consequences. There is no reason to put the blame primarily on the driver as you seem to have done.
shadetree58 said:It [NEW HOS RULES]may also force companies to look at their hiring process and start weeding out those drivers, who are always late because of,....overslept locked keys in car went to wrong place dog ate paperwork,
Opie says: All legitimate reasons to discharge drivers.

Answer:

Originally Opie says: Maybe the drivers who are late because they are out of hours are the drivers who abide by the law and refuse to falsify by shorting bottom line time. Moreover, the poor planning is more likely to be on the part of the dispatcher and/or the shippper. No allowance for traffic, weather, road conditions, etc.
Sometimes fatigue becomes unexpected and a driver must stop driving in order to avoid killing himself or members of the public.
More often than not the driver is given the schedule. Frequently, he cannot refused without suffering serious consequences. There is no reason to put the blame primarily on the driver as you seem to have done.

I do know that there are many legitimate reasons for a driver to not be able to complete a load on time due to HOS. Weather/road conditions, prolonged dock time, poor planning by dispatch, and fatigue
I should have made myself more clear. I was referring to the many drivers out there who do not plan their trips, have no idea how many hrs they have available, until the day thay run out, and then call up dispatch the afternoon before a morning delivery, and tell them they have no hrs.
As you have stated, companies cannot punish a driver for adhereing to the law, but planning your trips, and being aware of how many hrs you have available over the course of that trip(I know I'm going to catch it here), is the drivers responsibility.
Knowing these things, and communicating them to your company is the proper way to put the responsibility of delivering that load on time, back onto the company.
Drivers who do not do this, should be sent packing.
"The Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals --- it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government --- it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the Citizens' protection against the government."--Ayn Rand
Last edited by shadetree58 on Thu Jan 08, 2004 7:30 am; edited 1 time in total

Answer:

I'm leased onto a company that has always gone after the customer for detention. Many of our loads are delivered to jobsites and have temp laborers unloading them. We usually decide if we want to assist or not. This summer I delivered to Houston, TX and ended up being a tour guide. I would have to stand at the end of the trailer and point out which door the cabinets went into. The guy could have JUST come out of that same apartment and I would still have to guide him. Took 8 hrs to unload. We allow 4 hrs, so I got 200 dollars for my time, plus the unloading pay, even though I didn't touch 1 piece.
Last month I arrived on a Sunday evening, as requested, at a shipper. I sat for about 2 hours and the guard came out, telling me to leave and come back the next afternoon, to load. Load wouldn't be ready til then. I politely refused, telling him " I'm here, now, on time and you're not ready. That's not my fault. If I leave, The product will mysteriously be ready to go 1 hour after I leave. Now I know shipping told you to get rid of me, but I think I'll stay, just in case." Now, imagine my surprise when the guard woke me up 4 hrs later to go into a door.
I kept track of my time, including writing appointment time, time of arrival, time the guard tried to get rid of me, time I went into the door and finally time I pulled out of the facility, on the bills at the time I signed them>
Several of our cars were delayed by tis same company that weekend. I sat a total of 10 hours (most of which I spent sleeping, BTW) and got paid $ 200. Another driver sat for around 20 hours and got $ 400. So, I did OK. Got paid for sleeping and gave my log book a break. I never did tell the shipper I only had 3 hrs left to use that Monday . Dispatch knew, but they sure as hell weren't going to tell them either! My deliver was 1300 miles away for Wed afternoon, so things worked out great and I was able to run the load legally, as it should be.
Last edited by magicman on Thu Jan 08, 2004 8:22 am; edited 1 time in total